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May. 16th, 2010 @ 05:47 pm just a bit outside
Current Location: 94306
Current Mood: pensivepensive
Current Music: History.com
1:34 AM 5/16/10 · This is a religious post but it's just as much a historic deal as that. I'm watching a 2 hour special on the History Channel, contrasting the current Robin Hood movie with the actual historical accounting and it's touched on a relative sore point of mine. I've seen just about all of the Robin Hood movies but most notably in recent years it's the ones where Robin has been portrayed by Kevin Costner, Russell Crowe, & Sean Connery. Yeah, there's been others but these 3 feature that ever present sore point I'm referring to...

...the Holy Crusade.

I tend to frown on the praise that Christianity tends to insist it deserves due to a number of points in history, as well as some of their rather annoying behavior into the present day, and The Crusades is a biggie. Wherein the Church at the time basically gave English knights carte blanche to slaughter as many people as they possibly could so that they could be assured a place in Heaven. Not an unusual tact, lots of religions have used the promise of paradise the incite violence...but let's stay on point.

There's also the whole bit in regards of reclaiming the Holy Land for Christianity.

By the by, mildly amused by the accounting that back then the Christians referred to the Muslims as 'the infidel' and in modern times that's been reversed.

What I've never gotten is this. Realistically it means that the Christians were going to a place they never had been to take it from the Muslims that were in power there at the time in order to not give it back to the people who actually were from there; the Jews. Now it's possible my perspective on this is a bit off, I've not pursued the actual history of this since high school...

...it's just that my recall is that the Holy Land orginally belonged to the Jews. The Muslims came to power sometime after that but Christianity never has a footing there until after the Holy Crusade. It's not so much that the Holy Crusade was based on an outright lie but even if Christianity ever held any real influence in the goings on of the Holy Land it most certainly wasn't the Christians that came from England.

Of course, that little detail in the 10 Commandments regarding not murdering people adds to the soreness of all this.

Okay, Jesus was from the Holy Land (more or less) but he wasn't a Christian. He was Jewish, a rabbi. Even his disciples weren't really Christians, just a Hebrew cult if you'll allow for the phrasing. From my understanding there were any official Christians, referred to as such, until a very long time after the crucifixion.

Maybe a hundred years or so.

Am I wrong about this? Did Christianity ever have an actual sphere of power in the Holy Land before the Muslims took over? I'm thinking maybe Charlamagne but without looking it up I don't recall where he figured into all this historically. Not to mention he was ordained by the Pope and as brutal a Christian as there ever was.
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Templar Tux
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Date:May 17th, 2010 03:18 am (UTC)
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There were small groups of Christians immediately after the death of Christ which continued to grow stronger. By 313 AD Constantine made Christianity an official religion. In fact by the time Mohammed made it on the scene around 630 AD he is writing of the “Peoples of the Book” and he is referring to the Jews and the Christians (New and Old Testament and Apocryphal writings). A lot of the Koran is taken out of the Old Testament and other Jewish writings. The Prophet Mohammed claims to be the successive prophet to Abraham, David and Jesus.

Charlemagne is about AD 800 and the crusades are about 1000 AD. So by the time the crusades start there was a long history of Christianity in the Holy Land though by that time the countries that had Christianity as its predominate religion was Italy and the Western countries where Rome had invaded.

There is a lot more on Wikki if you want to brush up on religious history quickly without spending too much time. If you want to read a marvelous book on the Prophet Mohammed read Karen Armstrong’s book.

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Date:May 17th, 2010 06:03 am (UTC)
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I can't answer your final question but I do feel deeply disturbed by anyone who still thinks that the crusades was anything other than ethnic cleansing and bloody murder. On one memorable occasion they dragged out all of the inmates of a convent, raped them all, cut off their breasts and then killed them. Nice hey?
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Date:May 18th, 2010 10:31 pm (UTC)
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no argument here
Date:May 17th, 2010 11:40 pm (UTC)
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"Am I wrong about this? Did Christianity ever have an actual sphere of power in the Holy Land before the Muslims took over?"

No. Jewish followers of Jesus were ostracized from the synagogue after they refused to participate in the Bar Kochba revolt. Non-Jewish Christians didn't really care about Judea, and in many cases were anti-semitic. Try reading Justin Martyr's "Dialogue With Trypho the Jew" to see the extent of the polemic.